Hearing transcripts

20 October 2010 - Afternoon session

 
1 (2.00 pm)
2 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Yes, Mr Keith?
3 MR KEITH: My Lady, may I invite you to call
4 Dr Gerardine Quaghebeur, please.
5 DR GERARDINE MARIEMARTHE QUAGHEBEUR (sworn)
6 Questions by MR KEITH
7 MR KEITH: Good afternoon. Could you give the court your
8 full name, please?
9 A. Gerardine Mariemarthe Quaghebeur.
10 Q. We know from your statement that you are professionally
11 qualified, as far as you call yourself Dr Quaghebeur?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In which particular discipline or field is that?
14 A. I'm a neuroradiologist.
15 Q. Dr Quaghebeur, during the course of giving your
16 evidence, there are obviously a number of people in the
17 back of court who need to hear as well. Your microphone
18 won't, in fact, amplify your voice in the courtroom. It
19 links your evidence to the annex where others are seated
20 listening to the evidence. For the purposes of enabling
21 us to hear you in the courtroom, could you keep your
22 voice as high as you can?
23 A. I'll do my best.
24 Q. Thank you very much. You are, we understand,
25 a consultant neuroradiologist at the Radcliffe Infirmary

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1 in Oxford, is that right?
2 A. It's now the John Radcliffe Hospital. We moved
3 hospitals in between time.
4 Q. Certainly in 2005 you were?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Also in 2005, and maybe perhaps now, you also work for
7 a medical institute in London as a consultant?
8 A. I did then, but don't anymore.
9 Q. In 2005, you regularly travelled to London for the
10 purposes of attending work at that clinic or institute
11 where you were then working and, on the morning of
12 Thursday, 7 July, did you travel in to Paddington and
13 then take a Circle Line train to try to get to
14 Tower Hill?
15 A. Yes, usually I worked at Harley Street, but on this
16 Thursday I had to go to Cross Wall in the City, so
17 I took the Circle Line to go to Tower Hill.
18 Q. When you arrived at Paddington, did you initially,
19 I think, start walking in the wrong direction?
20 A. I got the wrong train, actually, I went the wrong way
21 round the Circle Line, so I stopped and then got back
22 again.
23 Q. But you caught the Circle Line going back in the other
24 direction towards Tower Hill, and you may have let one
25 train go past because it was particularly full?

2

1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. If I could ask you again to please keep your voice up,
3 that would be most helpful, thank you.
4 You boarded a train. Could we please have on the
5 screen INQ8360, page 1 [INQ8360-1]? There's a screen to your right,
6 Doctor.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. We will see on it two images. The one underneath shows
9 the location of what we now know to be the exploding
10 bomb to the left. We'll come back to the significance
11 of A, B, C and D in due course, but did you mark where
12 you were seated with an "X"?
13 A. I did, yes.
14 Q. Can you recall whether, when you boarded the train, you
15 immediately sat down or whether you crossed to the other
16 side of the carriage to sit down?
17 A. When I boarded, the train was very full, so I was
18 standing just by the doors, I think next to A, and then
19 we'd gone a few stations and I think at Liverpool Street
20 a lot of people got out, the carriage was relatively
21 empty, and then I went across and sat down.
22 Q. Could we look, please, at INQ10280, page 8 [INQ10280-8]?
23 This is a diagram, Doctor, prepared by the police
24 based on the written witness statements of the survivors
25 from the carriage, and your name will appear against

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1 number 26 in the middle column at the bottom, there's
2 a list of names, and 26, you'll see, is in the middle of
3 the carriage on the upper side, the same side in fact as
4 the bomb, and the same side in fact as the
5 Liverpool Street platform, but not necessarily the same
6 side as the platform from which you boarded because you
7 didn't board there.
8 A. No.
9 Q. From this map, we can see that, if you were seated in
10 position 26, there might have been an empty seat to your
11 right. Can you recall, in fact, whether that's correct
12 or whether there were people seated both sides of you?
13 A. I was a little confused because, initially, I thought
14 that I was sitting in the empty seat, although I've
15 marked that I'm sitting in the seat next to it, so I
16 can't be 100 per cent sure. I know that on my left-hand
17 side there was a lady sat there, so I can remember
18 a female passenger next to me on that side, and on my
19 right-hand side, I can remember a younger male
20 passenger, but I don't know if they were right next to
21 me or whether there was a seat between us, I really
22 don't remember.
23 Q. I quite understand.
24 So, my Lady, in fact, insofar as the plan also shows
25 that 28, that's to say to the Doctor's left, was a male,

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1 Darren Wale, that may not be correct either, if this
2 evidence is correct.
3 In any event, the Tube train moved off and continued
4 towards Aldgate. What do you recollect of what we now
5 know to be the explosion?
6 A. I was reading a book and I think the first thing was
7 that it went dark, and there was a very -- like
8 a whoosh, a very strong wind. It almost felt like
9 something electrical, because my hair just went up on
10 end, and that was the first thing I remember, was that
11 everything seemed to be electric. There was a lot of --
12 it was very dark, but there was lots of like sparks,
13 just funny feelings. I don't know if that was just, you
14 know, eyes getting used to it being dark.
15 There was a noise, but the noise wasn't the main
16 thing I remember. There was a bang, but the first thing
17 was the darkness, I think, and the train stopped, we
18 didn't move anymore.
19 Q. Did you remain in your seat or were you thrown out of
20 the seat?
21 A. Yes, I was pushed, you know, shoved a bit, but I was --
22 I stayed in my seat.
23 Q. After the moment of the explosion, do you recall
24 somebody opposite you producing a torch and turning it
25 on?

5

1 A. I do. I think it was a little bit later, I don't know
2 how long it was, the first thing I can remember was
3 turning to my left and asking if she was fine, just
4 patting her on her shoulder and she patted my shoulder.
5 A little bit later on there was some light from
6 a gentleman sitting opposite me, he had a torch, but
7 most of the -- we all just still sat down at that
8 moment.
9 Q. Do you recall anybody on your right-hand side then
10 attempting to get out of the carriage?
11 A. I think he did. I have a very strong recollection that
12 the younger man, I think he had blond hair, but it could
13 have been any colour, you know, it just seemed blondish,
14 that he went through -- we were against the wall, so
15 I can remember -- well, I vividly recollect him going
16 through the -- that window and I thought another person
17 did as well, but it was dark.
18 Q. Were you concerned that they may be exiting the carriage
19 only to descend on to a live rail?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you, therefore, not move yourself but just stay in
22 your seat?
23 A. I don't think I was thinking that logically. I was
24 worried about them going out. I think I was just sort
25 of -- I wasn't thinking about anything, really. I was

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1 just sort of sat there, really. I wasn't doing much.
2 Q. How long did you stay there seated?
3 A. I have no idea. It didn't seem terribly long. It was
4 very quiet. It was the one thing that just struck me,
5 as at that stage it seemed so quiet. It might have been
6 because I wasn't hearing very well. But it seemed five,
7 ten minutes, maybe, I don't know.
8 Q. It's obviously very difficult to tell --
9 A. Yes. I've no idea.
10 Q. -- because of the circumstances you were in and the
11 elapse of time since 2005. But in your statement you
12 certainly described that period whilst you were seated
13 in your seat as being a long time. "It seemed I had
14 been sat down for a long time". Was that the impression
15 that you gained then?
16 A. I think it was the impression I gained looking back now
17 and then knowing what happened, you know, or having some
18 idea about what happened afterwards. It probably wasn't
19 more than five minutes, if it was five minutes, but
20 I have no idea.
21 Q. At any rate, did there come a time when you saw
22 a London Underground employee outside the carriage?
23 A. Yes, it was all very quiet and people were -- my
24 recollection is that people, certainly in the carriage
25 I was in and the carriage to my left, were very much

7

1 sitting down. Nobody was -- there weren't many people
2 moving about, but it was very dark so it was quite
3 difficult to see anything, and then there was somebody
4 that came down the track and said, "If you can walk ..."
5 -- I seem to think they were saying, "If you can
6 walk come to the doors and, you know, come out",
7 basically, and then I noticed some people were going out
8 to the door to my left and then a group of us went to
9 the door to my right and the chap with the torch was
10 very polite and sort of helped everybody -- sort of was
11 helping other people to go first and I was staying with
12 him so we -- I think we sort of shepherded a little
13 group towards the door.
14 Q. Can you pause there and could we please have on the
15 screen INQ10280, page 7 [INQ10280-7]?
16 If you could just enlarge the bottom part of the
17 page, please, this is another schematic diagram of the
18 carriage, Doctor. It shows again the approximate
19 position of the explosion with the red cross, and your
20 seat would be on this plan number 8.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Which door did people alight from the train?
23 A. I seem to think they went from two doors. I saw some
24 people going -- so towards the 7/6 side. I don't know
25 whether they went out D4, D2, I didn't see those people.

8

1 The group I was with, we went out door 6.
2 Q. Do you recollect whether the London Underground
3 employees who were shepherding people out of the
4 carriage had any kind of illumination with them, a torch
5 or any sort of light?
6 A. I only remember one man at that stage, one, I presume,
7 employee. I don't think he had any light, because I can
8 remember asking to keep the torch from the nice chap, so
9 I don't think there was light, but I can't remember.
10 Q. Did you actually exit the carriage?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Why not?
13 A. Well, we got to the doors and people had got off and
14 this chap was waiting to help me down because it seemed
15 like quite a long drop, and that was the first time that
16 I actually looked to my right. I think I'd really --
17 I sort of knew something had happened but I hadn't
18 really realised what had happened, and then I looked to
19 my right and I saw that there were people sat on seats
20 trapped by other people and that there was a rather mess
21 really, I suppose, in that carriage, and the lady who
22 was sat in seat 22 sort of looked and said -- I think
23 she said something like "You can't be leaving us, you're
24 not going to leave us?" and so I said "No, no, I'll
25 stay", and I asked -- he said, "Are you sure you want to

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1 stay?" or something like that and I said, "Yes,
2 can I have the torch?" So he left me the torch and he
3 went away.
4 Q. Can we please have on the screen INQ8360 [INQ8360-1] and rotate it?
5 There on the bottom of the page -- the plan we looked at
6 a little earlier -- was the lady who said, "You're not
7 going, are you?" in the seat, seat A?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'd like to ask you, please, about --
10 A. I'm not saying she said that exactly.
11 Q. No, no. I'd like to ask you, please, about all the
12 persons who you subsequently saw in the carriage. We'll
13 start, if we may, with that lady.
14 A. Okay, she said her name was Crystal.
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. And that she and her partner, whose name was Bruce, had
17 been going for a dance competition or festival or they'd
18 won something or were going for something, and that she
19 couldn't move, and she couldn't hear, and she was very
20 concerned that she couldn't move because she had
21 somebody over her and she -- well, I don't know what she
22 was thinking, but the impression I got was that she was
23 concerned about moving herself in case she did something
24 to make the other person less well, you know, but on the
25 other hand, she was also wanting, you know, to see could

10

1 she move. But she couldn't move.
2 Q. Could you see the person to whom she was referring?
3 A. On top of her?
4 Q. See a person lying on top of her?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you please describe for us, if you can, what you
7 recall of that person?
8 A. It was a female person.
9 Q. Was she on her front or on her back?
10 A. She was -- so if Crystal was sat like this, she was
11 twisted so her -- she was sort of both on her front and
12 on her back.
13 Q. She had wrapped around her or twisted around --
14 A. She had twisted around a pole, really, or there seemed
15 to be something. I wasn't sure whether it was the side
16 of the carriage or something else, but she seemed to be
17 wrapped around something, so part of her was forward,
18 but part of her was also backwards.
19 Q. If you look at the screen, we can see that just next to
20 the "A", but diagonally up to the top right-hand corner,
21 we can see a little round circle which donates the
22 position of a pole being the end of the perspex screen
23 that's normally there. Can you say where the object
24 and, if it was a pole, the pole was, around which the
25 lady was wrapped?

11

1 A. It seemed to be fairly close to the front of A, but
2 I don't know.
3 Q. In your statement to the police you describe how the
4 lady who was pinned down was, in fact, pinned down by
5 the pole?
6 A. It seemed to be that she was pinned down by the pole.
7 Q. It seemed to you that she would have been unable to move
8 of her own volition?
9 A. Yes, she couldn't move and I couldn't see any way of
10 moving her.
11 Q. Do you recall roughly her age, how old she was?
12 A. She looked young.
13 Q. Do you recall anything of the length of her hair or the
14 colour of her hair?
15 A. Everyone's hair was black. We were all covered in soot
16 and dust. All I could seem to think of was that
17 everyone looked very dark-haired. It was long hair.
18 Q. Was she moving?
19 A. There were some movements, but I don't know if -- they
20 seemed to me to be involuntary movements.
21 Q. In your statement, you described her movements as spasms
22 and also as normally attributable to a spinal injury.
23 Was it the appearance of the involuntary nature of those
24 movements that led you to suspect that there might have
25 been some spinal injury?

12

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you tell us, please, anything of any other injuries
3 that you detected from where you were? And we
4 appreciate that at this stage you are some distance away
5 still.
6 A. She had -- to me, it felt as though she had a head
7 injury because there was blood. When I tried to support
8 her head, there was, to my mind, a head injury, and
9 I seem to recollect that she had some bleeding again
10 just a feel down the side. So I sort of thought she
11 probably had an internal abdominal injury.
12 Q. Abdominal injury?
13 A. Well, internal injury. You know.
14 Q. You have described her involuntary movements. Can you
15 say whether she was conscious in any way; for example,
16 whether her eyes were open or whether she was able to
17 formulate words or to communicate at all?
18 A. I never saw her eyes open. Again, it was dark. She
19 never communicated that I recognised as communication,
20 no.
21 Q. Did her condition remain constant during the time that
22 you were caring for her? Because you have described how
23 you held her head and how you attempted to tend for her.
24 A. The sort of spasms got less during the time we were
25 there.

13

1 Q. I appreciate it's very difficult to describe, but can
2 you give us some idea of the length of time during which
3 you cradled her in your arms?
4 A. Again, it's very difficult, because I think my watch
5 stopped and my phone stopped, I know it all happened at
6 8.40. I don't actually recall at what time I got on --
7 out of the train. I seem to think it was about an hour
8 later, but I'm just guessing. And I don't know, as
9 I say, I'm not sure what time it was then. So I would
10 have thought, if it took me five minutes to get from the
11 train to the platform, maybe 45 minutes, maybe.
12 Q. With your medical hat on, were you able to form any view
13 as to her chances of survival or as to what treatment
14 might have been appropriate, given the nature and extent
15 of the injuries that you could see?
16 A. I have to say I haven't done clinical -- I'm
17 a neuroradiologist --
18 Q. Of course.
19 A. -- so I haven't done clinical medicine for many years.
20 I don't know what the ultimate cause of her injuries
21 were. In my opinion, I didn't think she would survive,
22 even if she had got off the train earlier. But that's
23 a very personal opinion.
24 Q. The reason that I ask, Doctor, is that in your statement
25 you do express the view, then expressed, that you knew

14

1 that there was little chance for her to survive unless
2 she could be moved quickly, and we've heard some
3 evidence of a lady calling out from inside the carriage
4 that, unless medical help arrived quickly, people would
5 die, and it may well be that that lady was you.
6 A. It could be. I don't recall saying that, but it's quite
7 possible I did. I did at one stage get a bit
8 distressed. But it is possible that, if people had got
9 off the train earlier, they may have been alive getting
10 off the train, I still very much doubt whether the
11 outcome would be any different.
12 Q. Whilst you were cradling that young lady, did a man
13 approach you and assist you? You may have called out,
14 "Is anybody there?" or he may have called in, "Does
15 anybody need help in there?" And you asked him to come
16 over and help you.
17 A. What happened is we all stood there, I was trying to
18 support her a bit. Largely -- well, for two reasons, to
19 try to support her, but also to help Crystal to
20 a certain extent, she was quite distressed, and try to
21 get around to some of the others. People were
22 starting -- I don't know how much later this is, but we
23 could see people -- or I could see people walking down
24 the platform, obviously having come off the rest of the
25 train, and walking up to the station.

15

1 They all walked past in a row, and nobody came.
2 Well, that's not true. A couple of people came to take
3 photos, which I got really annoyed about, and I got
4 cross, and I think a policeman said they would stop
5 doing that, and there was one person who walked up to
6 the carriage and said, "Can I help?" I think he said
7 "I'm a St John's or a first aider, can I do anything to
8 help?" and I said, well -- I said, could he go to the
9 other side of the carriage to the other doors because
10 I could hear that there was somebody asking for help
11 over there, and I couldn't get there because the hole
12 was -- I tried, but I couldn't get through. So I asked
13 whether he would go there and see if there was anything
14 that could be done over there.
15 So he went away and came back and said that it was
16 fine, there was somebody helping there, and there wasn't
17 anything he could do there, could he come in to help me,
18 and I said if he wanted to, yes, because I was getting
19 tired of supporting the girl and also wondered if
20 I could do anything further, but I wasn't sure he would
21 be able to get in, it was quite difficult to get in, but
22 he did get himself in, and then he took turns with me to
23 sort of support the young woman and he actually stayed
24 on the train longer than I did with her.
25 Q. Were you there when paramedics arrived to attend to her?

16

1 A. Yes. The first people that arrived were the
2 Fire Brigade and they took the other two ladies off that
3 I said were safe to move.
4 Q. We'll come back to them in a moment. I'm just trying to
5 get the chronology for her.
6 A. Then the paramedics -- yes, the paramedics -- I was
7 there when the paramedics came on. I seem to remember
8 two -- if I'm right, there were two chaps that came on,
9 paramedics, and he said that they needed more room, they
10 wanted to clear room, and so, at that stage, he said
11 I was probably in the way or something, so did I want to
12 go, and I was -- I said, yes, I would go at that stage.
13 So I wasn't there when they did anything. I was
14 there when they got on to the train, but not after that.
15 Q. But when you left, the young lady was still where you
16 had cradled her, draped over Crystal?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Next to Crystal, in seat B, was her dance partner,
19 Bruce Lait, whom you have described for us. He was, we
20 understand, seated upright in his seat. You described,
21 I think, some superficial facial injuries that you could
22 see?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But he was similarly trapped, was he not --
25 A. Yes.

17

1 Q. -- under a second lady who was, as you describe in your
2 statement, on top of him?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Which part of his body was trapped?
5 A. So he could move his arms, I seem to recollect that he
6 was able to move his arms. I don't think Crystal could.
7 And with him, the person was more like on his lap. So
8 it was more his lower body that was trapped.
9 Q. Can you tell us, please, what you recall of that lady?
10 A. She was also female, and I thought a little bit older
11 than the first person. I think she also had quite
12 longish hair, but not as long as the first girl's. She
13 initially, when I stretched over to see whether there
14 was any signs of life, I had the very vague impression
15 of a pulse, but, very shortly after that, there was
16 nothing there at all. So in my opinion she didn't
17 survive very long after the injuries.
18 Q. From what you say, Doctor, it seems that it was you who
19 discovered that her pulse had faded and then ceased,
20 because you've said --
21 A. I think so, that's what I remember.
22 Q. -- there was nothing there at all very shortly after.
23 A. That's what I remember.
24 Q. In your statement, if I could just ask you about this in
25 a little more detail, if I may, you recount how,

18

1 subsequently, you later found out that the lady did die,
2 which tends to give the impression that you may not have
3 known at the time, but is it your recollection that you
4 were present when her pulse --
5 A. That statement, when I read it, wasn't -- doesn't --
6 I thought, when I left that carriage, that she was not
7 alive, and that is -- I thought that was part of the
8 handover I gave to the -- both the -- the fire officers
9 and also to the ambulance personnel, I did not think
10 that she was alive.
11 Q. Did you tell them, coincidently you were
12 a neuroradiologist with basic medical training?
13 A. I just said that I was a doctor. They weren't very
14 interested.
15 Q. There were two older ladies sitting opposite Crystal
16 whom you marked on the plan at C and D?
17 A. Yes, I think that's where they were sitting. It was on
18 that side of the carriage.
19 Q. Were they older still? I think you describe them as
20 being in their 50s.
21 A. I think so.
22 Q. Obviously very hard to tell.
23 A. Yes. But they seemed more mature.
24 Q. Do you recall the injuries that they had?
25 A. I -- they had facial injuries that you could see, and

19

1 one of them -- and I don't know which one -- had leg
2 injuries, because she mentioned that she had leg
3 injuries and her legs were trapped by debris. They both
4 were talking to me at the time and, in fact, at the
5 beginning, when I tried to go over to see -- because
6 I felt there were people that maybe one should try to
7 get out earlier -- I nearly fell through the hole and
8 one of them said "Don't be stupid, you'll make things
9 much worse. Stay where you are", so obviously very much
10 aware, you know, of what was going on.
11 Q. Beyond them, we can see on the plan the approximate
12 location of the explosion, and it is there that we now
13 appreciate was the hole, the crater, left by the
14 explosion.
15 Near there, in that area, between those two double
16 doors, could you see a man or a woman on the floor with
17 very severe trauma?
18 A. I think I could. To me, it seemed as though they were
19 slightly closer to where that pole marker is.
20 Q. Which? There are four round the crater.
21 A. No, the one between C and D.
22 Q. The one in the middle between C and B, right.
23 A. It seemed -- I don't know, it just seemed closer than
24 that far, but again, it's dark, I don't know.
25 Q. Well, that may be quite possible, Doctor, because we

20

1 know that there were other bodies on the floor in the
2 middle of the carriageway between the two banks of
3 seats. Can you tell us any more, please, about what you
4 recollect of the persons who were in that location, and
5 if they were between C and B, so be it?
6 A. Very little. It just looked like bodies and bits of
7 bodies.
8 Q. Did you gain the impression that there was, therefore,
9 more than one person there?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Was the fact that -- was the extent of the devastation
12 and the fact that there were body parts there part of
13 your reasoning as to why perhaps they could not be
14 helped in distinction to those other persons whom you
15 did seek to help?
16 A. Yes, because -- well, I suppose it was that and the fact
17 that there was no movement there, you know, just nothing
18 was moving there.
19 Q. Further away, nearer the end of the carriage, was there,
20 however, somebody whom you saw moving?
21 A. Yes, and this I thought was when the chap, the first
22 aider chap, came, I thought that was possibly the person
23 that I could hear asking for help or, you know --
24 because I don't remember much, but I think I heard
25 someone say, "Help! My legs" or "My leg, my legs",

21

1 I don't know, you know, whether that's true or not.
2 It's just something that sometimes, you know, I think
3 I heard. And there did seem to be somebody at that --
4 further away from the carriage, who was trying -- who
5 was moving, but I couldn't see much of them.
6 Q. Can you tell whether the person whom you heard and whom
7 you saw moving was nearer the seats at E or in the
8 standing area between the two sets of doors around the
9 bomb?
10 A. I thought they were nearer to where you've got your --
11 not you, but where that bomb mark is. I thought they
12 were closer to me.
13 Q. Could you see anything of that person's clothing, for
14 example whether they wore a blue shirt, albeit shredded?
15 A. No. It was very dark.
16 Q. I'm sorry to press you. Can you say anything more about
17 the way in which they were moving? Let me give you an
18 example. Was it a person who appeared to be conscious
19 and saying, "My legs", because we've heard from somebody
20 whose legs were blown off, Mr Brown, but who was able to
21 sit in his seat or to pull himself back into his seat,
22 or somebody who was lying incoherently on the floor and
23 moving to a much less coordinated degree?
24 A. I think there were two.
25 Q. There were two?

22

1 A. I think it was two, because I think I did hear, if it
2 was Mr Brown -- but that was later -- I thought later,
3 and I thought that carried on for a little while, and
4 I've always thought that that was the person that --
5 I don't know -- the first aider chap went to see and
6 then came back and said to me, "No, he is okay", but
7 I thought initially that there had been somebody closer
8 to me who had also said something. I think it was two
9 people, but I can't be sure.
10 Q. That's very helpful. The man further away whom you
11 asked the first aider to help is the man that you, in
12 fact, recorded on this plan as "E", do you recall that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That would seem to suggest, therefore, that that person
15 was near the bank of seats at the end.
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Were you able, yourself, to go towards the end of the
18 carriage?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Why was that?
21 A. Well, I couldn't go down the inside route because I --
22 as I say, I slipped down the hole and then I sort of got
23 probably as far as where that pole is marked and then
24 couldn't -- and couldn't see the point of actually going
25 any further, quite frankly. And the other alternative

23

1 would have been to get out of the train, but I couldn't
2 on my own, it was too high, and then I would have had to
3 leave Crystal and Bruce and I wouldn't have been --
4 I didn't think I'd get in the other side. So I really
5 didn't think I would achieve -- I don't think I achieved
6 anything anyway, but I certainly wasn't going to achieve
7 anything more useful by getting off that train.
8 Q. The man whom you thought was a first aider, though, was
9 able at some point to get to the man at E with the
10 severe leg injuries --
11 A. I think --
12 Q. -- and come back and help you with the young lady whom
13 you were cradling in your arms?
14 A. I don't recall whether he did or didn't. I recall he
15 went to the other side of the train and then came back.
16 I don't know whether he got -- I don't know whether he
17 got on to that carriage. I don't know whether he got on
18 to the carriage at E or whether he just went and looked
19 and said, "There's nothing there, shall I come back to
20 you?" I don't know what he did.
21 Q. I understand.
22 A. But he managed to climb himself up on -- through our
23 doors.
24 Q. Through the doors next to A, Crystal and the young lady
25 whom you were cradling in your arms?

24

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You recount in your statement how you then became aware
3 that some emergency services arrived a few at first.
4 Again, we appreciate it's extremely difficult to
5 give an estimate of the elapse of time, but how long do
6 you think you were caring for the young lady adjacent to
7 Crystal before you first saw the emergency services?
8 A. It depends who the emergency -- what do you mean?
9 I mean, there was people from what I think were the
10 Tube.
11 Q. London Underground, yes. We know they were there
12 already because they'd been shepherding people off the
13 train.
14 A. But they didn't do anything further than that.
15 Q. There was a police officer who you said stopped people
16 from taking photographs.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What about Fire Brigade, paramedics? You've described
19 the paramedics who arrived to look after the young lady.
20 A. They arrived last, so the first people to come on to the
21 train were the Fire Brigade.
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I seem to recall three, I don't know, there may have
24 been a different number, I seem to think there were
25 three of them. How long? I mean, they were on there

25

1 for long enough, I think, to take some people off, so
2 how long would that have taken them; five, ten minutes?
3 And I was still on the train. Maybe half an hour, 40 --
4 I don't know, I really don't know.
5 Q. Did they arrive more or less around the same time, the
6 paramedics and the Fire Brigade?
7 A. No, the Fire Brigade --
8 Q. The Fire Brigade definitely first?
9 A. Definitely first, yes. I mean, I think -- I seem to
10 think one of them -- well, I thought they came outside
11 and then they went away and then they came back, but
12 I may be wrong. But then the Fire Brigade came, they
13 got on to the carriage and they asked what I was doing
14 there, and I said I was a doctor, and they said could
15 I tell them whether there were any people that they
16 could take off safely, in my opinion, while they were
17 waiting, you know, for medical help, or was there anyone
18 that I thought could be safely taken off the train, and
19 I said, yes, I thought the two ladies in C and D, if
20 they were extracted, were safe to be taken off the train
21 because I thought, well, the little bit -- in my
22 opinion, they could be moved.
23 Q. Without further endangering them?
24 A. Without further injuring them and without actually
25 injuring anybody else either.

26

1 Q. Was that an assessment you formed or were obliged to
2 form in relation to everybody else around you, so the
3 young lady whom you'd been cradling, what was your view
4 in relation to whether she could be moved?
5 A. I suppose I had two views. I didn't think she'd
6 survive. I mean, I don't know, I wasn't even sure, in
7 all honesty, when I left, that she was really still
8 alive, although I understand she was. But I didn't
9 think that we would -- that it would be possible to get
10 her out very easily with maybe no other help there.
11 I think also probably the reason I answered that
12 question to the Fire Brigade was because they seemed to
13 want to know was there something that they could do
14 without a medic being there, but could I give them
15 permission to do something.
16 Q. Did you see them assist the two ladies at C and D out of
17 the carriage?
18 A. Yes, I think I did, yes, but I don't remember that very
19 much.
20 Q. Do you remember Mr Lait and Ms Main, the two dancers at
21 A and B, being moved out of the carriage?
22 A. No, I left before then.
23 Q. You must have left before then?
24 A. I left before then. I saw them afterwards up on the
25 platform, but I left before they left the carriage.

27

1 Q. You told us a little earlier about how you left the
2 young lady, whom you have described at some length and
3 whom you suspected would not survive.
4 Can you remember your last sight or your last
5 recollection of the second lady who was across the lower
6 half of Mr Lait?
7 A. That hadn't changed from when I first saw her, so
8 nothing had changed. When I left the carriage, that was
9 exactly as it had been from the start. I didn't see any
10 change there.
11 Q. You went up to the ground floor, you went along the
12 tunnel across the platforms and up.
13 A. Yes, I mean, the paramedics came up and there was a nice
14 man in a suit who walked me up the platform.
15 Q. You've just said that the paramedics --
16 A. I think they were paramedics. No, not paramedics, what
17 are they called? They were doctors, I think, the ...
18 Q. HEMS?
19 A. Yes, them.
20 Q. The Helicopter --
21 A. The helicopter --
22 Q. -- Emergency Medical --
23 A. Yes, sorry -- sorry.
24 Q. Where did you see them?
25 A. Well, they came -- so, after the Fire Brigade came,

28

1 these two chaps came, one of them had one of the orange
2 bags, you know.
3 Q. The medical equipment?
4 A. The medical equipment, and the first chap came on and
5 the second guy came on, I think there was a bit of
6 a struggle, and then --
7 Q. Is that because he was of a slightly larger build?
8 A. Yes, and it was a very high thing to get on, and by that
9 stage actually, that -- you know, there wasn't much room
10 there because there was me, there was the first aider,
11 there was the Fire Brigade, it was actually quite --
12 there wasn't a lot of room to move and there was a hole
13 in the middle. So it was a bit tricky, I think, for
14 people to get on and off.
15 So when they came on, I think I said to -- I don't
16 know, I think I said, you know, "I'm a doctor", and
17 I thought the lady on Mr Lait or Bruce's lap was dead,
18 I thought the girl opposite Crystal was unlikely to
19 survive, and that there were other -- a lot of other
20 dead people in the carriage and then they said "You can
21 go now" or something like that.
22 Q. It seems likely from what you've said that, by the time
23 you left, there would have been little chance of further
24 paramedics or emergency staff being able to get into the
25 carriage and into that area?

29

1 A. It was -- yes, it seemed very crowded.
2 Q. At ground level, you no doubt saw the walking wounded
3 and others who had been able to walk out of the tunnel.
4 A. I think most had gone by the time I came up. There was
5 a bus still waiting to take the walking wounded,
6 I think -- I believe some buses had gone already, and
7 initially I was told to get on the bus, and then, when
8 I was on the bus, somebody came and they assessed people
9 as to whether they were fine or not, and I think I was
10 getting quite short of breath by then, and they said,
11 "No, stay off, stay on the platform", so I stayed on the
12 platform with the more seriously injured.
13 Q. On which part of the platform?
14 A. Well, it was not on the platform --
15 Q. Do you mean on the mezzanine level above the platform
16 before ground level?
17 A. No, it was on the ground where the buses are.
18 Q. Outside the front of the station?
19 A. Yes, but did we not go out to another station?
20 I can't -- because I seem to think we came up the stairs
21 and walked across the road.
22 Q. I'm not sure we have a detailed map, but if you look at
23 INQ10280, page 2 [INQ10280-2], there's a map there of the front
24 entrance to Aldgate station and the entrance opens out
25 on to Aldgate High Street, and you will see on the

30

1 bottom right-hand corner a photograph, an overhead
2 aerial photograph of the front of the station, I don't
3 know whether that helps you.
4 A. No, I can't remember where we went to, to be honest.
5 Q. There is a bus station opposite on the other side of
6 Aldgate High Street, perhaps --
7 A. I think we might have gone to the bus station, because
8 there was a bus there and I can remember we were sitting
9 on a -- there was a pavement. I can remember sitting on
10 a pavement.
11 Q. Did you see Mr Lait and Ms Main coming up and out of the
12 station?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. And I think you went across and you saw the injuries
15 that Crystal Main had?
16 A. And we all went to the Royal London together in the same
17 ambulance.
18 Q. In a group?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Doctor, yourself, you suffered from, I think, smoke
21 inhalation, your ear drum was perforated and you had
22 a number of cuts and bruises, no doubt your face and
23 scalp and exposed parts of your body?
24 A. Yes, not much.
25 Q. May I ask you one other thing, please? Afterwards, as

31

1 a result of the treatment that you received, I presume
2 in the Royal London --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- you took the time and the trouble to write to the
5 London Ambulance Service thanking them for their care
6 and sheer professionalism when dealing with yourself and
7 other victims of that Aldgate bomb, and I think you
8 described their attitude and professionalism as
9 "exemplary"?
10 A. I did, because getting up on to the -- wherever it was,
11 the bus station, or whatever, the triaging by the London
12 Ambulance Service was, in my opinion, excellent. There
13 were some more junior doctors, I think, involved, but
14 I think it was really the ambulance guys and women that
15 were taking charge and, you know, were just incredibly
16 good but I also wrote to Royal London because I think
17 Alistair Wilson and his team also did, in my opinion,
18 a very good job because, in addition to looking after
19 what, to me, seemed like an awful lot of people, they
20 remained very humane and they gave people time, because
21 I saw my first aider, you know, the chap who was there,
22 and he was very distressed. They gave us time to talk
23 and, you know, to have a hug and things like that, and
24 I think sometimes that's -- you know, it can be
25 difficult when you're busy and have a lot of casualties

32

1 coming through. So I thought they did brilliantly.
2 Q. Do you recall the name now of -- have you discovered the
3 name of the first aider?
4 A. Is it Mr Desborough?
5 Q. It is, Steven Desborough.
6 A. Just from the transcripts, but I don't know.
7 MR KEITH: Doctor, thank you very much. Will you stay
8 there? There may be some further questions for you.
9 Questions by MR COLTART
10 MR COLTART: Only very few and it's just one particular
11 topic I'd like to return to, Doctor, if we may. Could
12 we have the Doctor's diagram plan back up on the screen,
13 please, INQ8360 [INQ8360-1]? Thank you.
14 I would just like to clarify precisely who it is
15 we're talking about here, if we can, and I know that
16 Mr Keith has gone over this already. I'm going to
17 remind you of what you said in your witness statement
18 and then we'll see if from that we can divine any
19 further clues.
20 You say this at page 3:
21 "I could then see the seat of the explosion" which
22 plainly we have marked on the plan.
23 "There was a male on the floor. Although there was
24 severe trauma, I could see body parts separated from the
25 body. On the other side, near the end of the carriage,

33

1 I saw a white male on the floor."
2 So can we take it that you're talking about two
3 different people at this point?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There was one person who appears to have suffered
6 a traumatic amputation of some description and,
7 separately, there's a white male who's on the floor, and
8 you go on to say he had severe injuries to his legs, he
9 was in pain and discomfort. Is that right?
10 A. That's what I recollect.
11 Q. Yes. When you talk about the male, the second of those
12 two men, being on the other side, near the end of the
13 carriage, you mean presumably -- well, in fairness,
14 you've marked it on the plan, is that where you saw him,
15 or thereabouts, point E?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can we just go, then, for a moment to INQ10280? Of the
18 plan at page 7, please?
19 Thank you, and in fact then at page 8 [INQ10280-8].
20 We can see, Doctor, on this plan, the seat of the
21 explosion is around about points 5 or 6. Do you see
22 where that's marked on the diagram? Separately, it
23 appears from the area that you've just been describing
24 which you had marked on at point B on your plan, do you
25 see separately on this map a little further down to the

34

1 right at point 11 on the plan?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, we know, in fact, that there was a young white male
4 who was in that position, at least at some point after
5 the explosion occurred. Is that, though, in a different
6 position from the position that you've just been
7 describing to us?
8 A. Yes, because I think I would have had difficulty seeing
9 that from where I was.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. So my recollection is that I was thinking more about
12 nine or ten, really, that position. But I'm not sure
13 how straight things --
14 Q. I'm just going to ask you to pause for a moment, if you
15 don't mind. I seem to be enduring ongoing technical
16 difficulties, probably of my own making.
17 If it's any consolation I'm very nearly finished.
18 Can I just -- my Lady --
19 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Why don't you swap with Mr Keith
20 again, Mr Coltart?
21 MR COLTART: I was just looking the transcript. It looks as
22 if everything I've said has been transcribed.
23 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I don't think it's just a case of
24 appearing on the transcript --
25 MR COLTART: Oh, I see.

35

1 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: -- I think it's a case of it being
2 relayed to the annex.
3 MR COLTART: Of course. Shall I swap with Mr Keith?
4 I don't know whether that involves going back to the
5 beginning. If it does, I think perhaps we could
6 summarise the effect of what I've been asking very
7 shortly and, Doctor, does it really come down to this,
8 that in your statement, when dealing with the person
9 that you had marked at point E on your plan, it appears
10 as if there are two separate people that you had been
11 describing, one of whom had suffered some sort of
12 traumatic amputation of the limbs and the other who was
13 in a great deal of pain, but the other, the second of
14 those two men, was down very much to the left-hand side
15 at the end of the carriage?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And he wasn't a person who may have been situated at
18 point 11 on this plan which we presently have up?
19 A. No, it seemed further past the doors.
20 Q. I think you said you would have had difficulty in
21 seeing, from where you were situated, the person who we
22 see marked at point 11?
23 A. I think so, because -- I mean, I know things were
24 twisted, but I think I still would have had difficulty
25 seeing past Crystal and Bruce and all those things.

36

1 MR COLTART: Thank you very much.
2 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Saunders?
3 Questions by MR SAUNDERS
4 MR SAUNDERS: Dr Quaghebeur, I'd like to ask you some
5 questions on behalf of the family of Fiona Stevenson.
6 She, we understand, was the lady who was across
7 Bruce Lait's lap and legs.
8 You were first aware, I think, of the other lady
9 you've described, who we believe to be Carrie Taylor,
10 who was across Crystal Main?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it right that you had difficulty actually reaching
13 across to, in fact, check on Fiona Stevenson?
14 A. Yes, because there was -- if it's Ms Taylor there, there
15 was this pole or something in the way as well. So, yes,
16 it was difficult, but I was able to reach round sort of
17 between Crystal and Ms Taylor, because I can remember
18 also being able to reach Bruce Main (sic) and just
19 saying -- patting his shoulder at one stage, and so from
20 there I could just reach the other person.
21 Q. I think you felt for a pulse in the neck and you
22 believed at that stage --
23 A. I thought there was a faint pulse there.
24 Q. -- there may have been a faint pulse. Can I ask you, if
25 you are able to help and, if you can't, then obviously

37

1 I know you'll say, Doctor, how long would that have been
2 after the explosion that you thought you may have felt
3 this pulse?
4 A. Again, if it -- if my moving from where I was to where
5 I am took maybe ten minutes, which I'm guessing, then it
6 would be about ten minutes.
7 Q. Do you remember Bruce Lait saying anything about he was
8 holding what we now know to be Fiona's hand and feeling
9 movement?
10 A. I don't recall that.
11 Q. We heard read yesterday Crystal Main's statement where
12 she describes she believed hearing a noise coming from
13 Fiona. Were you aware of that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Can you recall whether Crystal ever said anything like
16 that to you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You've already been asked in part and I think you've
19 read it yourself before coming into the hearing today
20 what was said about Fiona having a pulse, "but I later
21 found out that she did die", but you don't recall that.
22 Now, it may well be that in the statement, I think your
23 statement was taken on 13 September, so two months
24 afterwards, in the way it was taken down, you recall it
25 differently now.

38

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But you think that you were aware, when you left, that
3 that lady that I've referred to as Fiona Stevenson had,
4 in fact, passed away by then?
5 A. I thought so.
6 Q. Can you help me with this? You thought you may have, in
7 a handover, when either the Fire Brigade officer or
8 paramedic took over, that you would have said that in
9 the handover?
10 A. I thought so.
11 Q. Do you remember which it was, the Fire Brigade or the
12 paramedic?
13 A. I think it was the medic.
14 Q. You think it was the paramedic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you ever been aware of who that may have been?
17 A. No.
18 MR SAUNDERS: Thank you very much, Doctor.
19 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Ms Sheff?
20 Questions by MS SHEFF
21 MS SHEFF: Could we have your plan back up, please? You
22 were asked by Mr Keith about bodies in between the
23 passageway in C and B, and you've just been asked by
24 Mr Saunders about Fiona Stevenson. From what we know of
25 the recovery of bodies, there was, underneath

39

1 Fiona Stevenson, two other bodies, one of which directly
2 underneath was Benedetta Ciaccia whose family
3 I represent. She was dressed in denim. She had a denim
4 jacket and a denim skirt. Did you recall seeing
5 anything of that person?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So was it that you just had a general impression --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- of bodies that weren't moving?
10 A. Yes. It was very dark.
11 Q. You see, when your first aider, Mr Desborough, gave
12 evidence, he said that, when he came to help, you said
13 to him, "There are two people who are dead in the
14 carriage". Do you know to whom you were referring?
15 A. I don't recall saying that to him. I may very well have
16 said it. I thought I probably would have said "There
17 are dead people in the carriage", is, I think, what
18 I would be more likely to say. I thought the people on
19 the floor, in that area, were dead, and I got the
20 impression it was more than one person, because there
21 seemed to be -- well, there seemed to be more than two
22 legs and, you know. But I had no idea how many people
23 were in that carriage.
24 Q. The impression we have from the recovery process is that
25 there was a body of Anne Moffat on the floor actually on

40

1 the ground, Benedetta Ciaccia was on top of her, and on
2 top of Ms Ciaccia was Ms Stevenson who was leaning on to
3 Bruce Lait.
4 A. Certainly the impression I got was that the people on
5 the floor were dead.
6 Q. And you got that impression because there was no
7 movement?
8 A. There was no movement at all.
9 Q. There was no sound?
10 A. Nothing at all.
11 Q. There was no even involuntary movement from them?
12 A. Not that I could see.
13 Q. And of course, you were looking at them professionally
14 at that stage to see whether you could help?
15 A. I doubt it. I mean, I think, you know, yes, I'm
16 a doctor, but really, I was no more professional -- you
17 know, well, what can you do in a situation like that?
18 Q. You were no doubt --
19 A. You can do absolutely nothing at all.
20 Q. -- traumatised yourself?
21 A. It's not that. You can't do anything. You're
22 completely on your own. You have no first aid to give,
23 you have no airway to give. You have absolutely nothing
24 to give, other than to maybe comfort the people that are
25 alive. But the impression I got was that there was

41

1 absolutely no movement and no sound at all.
2 Q. I'm going to ask you similarly in regard to the other
3 part of the carriage, which you couldn't see very well
4 but you were directing Mr Desborough to go and attend
5 to, which is the two gentlemen that you've told us
6 about. Those were the only people, again, that you
7 could tell had any sign of movement?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Or any sign of life at all?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Again, had there been anything else which you had noted
12 from any other person in that area, for example,
13 somebody underneath some rubble who was moving, no doubt
14 you would have directed Mr Desborough to that?
15 A. I think if I'd seen somebody moving or heard something,
16 yes, I would have suggested that's where he go. But ...
17 Q. Yes. Can I just finally ask you this, from your
18 professional knowledge and experience? You talked about
19 the female earlier who we know now to be Fiona Stevenson
20 having what you called, I think, involuntary movement.
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. Sorry, Carrie Taylor, I'm so sorry. There was some
23 involuntary movement from her?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can I ask you this: is that something that can occur

42

1 either close to or even after death with regard to parts
2 of bodies that can move involuntarily, even after --
3 A. I'm not the right doctor to ask that question to, but
4 I think certainly immediately around death, with spinal
5 injuries, you can have involuntary movements. I'm not
6 qualified to comment on that other one.
7 Q. For example, a limb twitching might not mean that there
8 is actually any sign of life or that person is moving
9 the body voluntarily, it could be --
10 A. I don't know, as I say, I'm really not qualified to
11 answer that.
12 MS SHEFF: No. So be it. Yes, thank you very much, Doctor.
13 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Taylor?
14 Questions by MR TAYLOR
15 MR TAYLOR: Good afternoon, Doctor. It's clear to me now
16 that the first lady you went to was Carrie, my daughter.
17 When you first came across Carrie, was it apparent to
18 you that she had internal injuries?
19 A. It seemed to me that she had, yes.
20 Q. And you obviously felt that she must have had spinal
21 injuries as well?
22 A. From the way that she was positioned, I thought so, yes.
23 Q. It was your opinion that Carrie would not have survived
24 unless she got medical aid immediately?
25 A. Well, nobody would survive an injury like that without

43

1 aid. I still don't know whether she would have survived
2 if aid had come first -- earlier.
3 Q. And you cannot remember calling for medical help?
4 A. I don't recall that, but as I say, I don't -- I can't
5 say that I didn't say that, but it doesn't sound like
6 the kind of thing I'd shout out, but I can't ...
7 Q. You say you remember taking a pulse from Fiona and you
8 took it from the carotid artery?
9 A. From her neck, yes.
10 Q. From her neck. Did you attempt to take a pulse from
11 Carrie?
12 A. Carrie did have a pulse, yes, initially.
13 Q. She did have a pulse?
14 A. She did have a pulse.
15 Q. And that was taken from the neck?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. We now know that time to try and -- the thing about time
18 is very, very difficult. How long after you got that
19 pulse did you leave?
20 A. I don't know, because I still don't know how long I was
21 on -- I think I was on that thing for -- on the train
22 for about an hour, so presumably 40 -- I don't know.
23 But if I was out at 9.50, and the explosion happened at
24 8.50, didn't it, then I would have been there for about
25 an hour.

44

1 Q. So I would suggest to you that your main reason for
2 staying there with Carrie was to comfort her?
3 A. It was to comfort her and it was to comfort some of the
4 other people in the carriage and not leave them alone.
5 MR TAYLOR: Thank you very much for that, thank you.
6 A. Sorry about your daughter.
7 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Any other questions for the Doctor?
8 I have just one question, Doctor. You mentioned the
9 police officer who stopped the people from taking
10 photographs or said he would. Are you saying that was
11 a police officer who was a fellow passenger or somebody
12 who came in uniform?
13 A. I don't know. I'm calling him a police officer. He may
14 have been -- there were a lot of people in bits of
15 uniform and things on. He just -- I don't know why
16 I thought he was a police officer. He was with the
17 people going off -- shepherding the other people off.
18 I just thought he was a police officer. You know, he
19 wasn't a fellow passenger. He was outside the train, he
20 never came on to the train, and he was just walking up
21 and down, outside.
22 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Unless anybody has any questions from
23 that question?
24 Doctor, we're extremely grateful to you for coming.
25 Thank goodness that you let that first train pass.

45

1 I know it was awful for you, but I think you
2 underestimate the importance of what you did achieve and
3 you offered comfort and assistance to some people in
4 dire distress and dire circumstances. In my judgment,
5 you behaved with great courage, determination and
6 humanity and there are a number of people who have very
7 great cause to be grateful to you. So thank you.
8 A. Thank you.
9 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Are we now moving on to another
10 witness?
11 MR KEITH: My Lady, yes.
12 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Would that be a convenient moment to
13 take a break?
14 MR KEITH: Certainly.
15 (3.05 pm)
16 (A short break)
17 (3.20 pm)
18 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Yes, Mr Keith?
19 MR KEITH: My Lady, may I invite you to call Detective
20 Inspector Baker, please?
21 DETECTIVE INSPECTOR IAN BAKER (sworn)
22 Questions by MR KEITH
23 MR KEITH: Is your name Ian Baker?
24 A. It is, sir, yes.
25 Q. Mr Baker, I've called you Detective Inspector because

46

1 that is the rank which you had certainly in July 2005?
2 A. That's right, it's still the same.
3 Q. You're a detective inspector now, good. Right. You, on
4 7 July, were working in the early hours of that morning
5 at Aldgate police station, were you not?
6 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
7 Q. Could you please have a look at the screen where you
8 should find INQ10280, page 4 [INQ10280-4]? It shows a map of the
9 Aldgate station. Near the front of the Aldgate station,
10 to the right-hand side of the entrance, is there in fact
11 a BTP, a British Transport Police office?
12 A. There is, yes. It's diagonally here, I don't know if
13 you can all see, there's like a double door which leads
14 to the office.
15 Q. There's a door to the left of the entrance, is that what
16 you mean? We can't see where you're pointing with your
17 finger.
18 A. Sorry. It's not easy to say. If you stand out the
19 front of the station and look to your right, it's here.
20 Q. That is what I asked, it's to the right of the entrance?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But is the door on to the street or is it into the foyer
23 of that entrance?
24 A. It's on to -- I'd class it as the forecourt of the
25 station.

47

1 Q. Right. At any rate, were you working there in the
2 station at around about 8.45 to 8.50 when you heard
3 a loud explosion?
4 A. That's correct, yes.
5 Q. Did the building shake?
6 A. It did, yes.
7 Q. Were you working on anything particular at the time?
8 A. I was sat at a computer terminal checking some crime
9 figures, I believe.
10 Q. Did the lights go off?
11 A. Not to my recollection.
12 Q. What about the computer?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was there anybody in the office with you?
15 A. Yes, there was four or five other people, I think.
16 Q. All British Transport Police officers?
17 A. To my understanding, yes.
18 Q. Did you go immediately downstairs?
19 A. I did, sir, yes.
20 Q. Through the barriers and the entrance to the station?
21 A. That's right, yes.
22 Q. Which presumably you can access and go through --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- without any hindrance. What did you find when you
25 entered the station?

48

1 A. The station was being evacuated at the time, I believe.
2 We spoke to a member of staff who was present and he was
3 in the process of evacuating the station. We assisted
4 him.
5 Q. Sorry, Mr Baker, it's very hard to hear your voice.
6 A. Sorry.
7 Q. The microphone doesn't amplify your voice in the
8 courtroom and it would greatly assist if you could speak
9 as loudly as you feel able.
10 A. Okay, yes. We assisted the members of staff in
11 evacuating the station. We were concerned as to what
12 had happened.
13 Q. Where were they evacuating passengers from? From the
14 station or from trains?
15 A. From the train and the station.
16 Q. If you look at that page again, INQ10280, page 4 [INQ10280-4], you'll
17 see that it shows the four platforms at Aldgate.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was there a Metropolitan and City line train at one of
20 the platforms?
21 A. There was, yes.
22 Q. Do you recall which platform it was?
23 A. I believe it was platform 2.
24 Q. Could you see people coming from that train up the steps
25 to the mezzanine level in Aldgate, which we can see on

49

1 page 3?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Then up to the exit?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you go down to the platform level?
6 A. I did, yes, sir.
7 Q. Which platform did you go to?
8 A. On to platform 2.
9 Q. So if we look at that page, page 3, we can see steps
10 coming down to platforms 1 and 2?
11 A. That's right, yes.
12 Q. That was where the train was. Did you go along the
13 platform?
14 A. I think initially I stopped around platform 2 and then
15 started to make a phone call.
16 Q. Was that the phone call that you made to the control
17 room?
18 A. That's correct, yes.
19 Q. Before we look at the phone call itself, what made you
20 call the control room?
21 A. Clearly an incident had occurred. I didn't know what.
22 Q. What signs did it have? You'd had an explosion or the
23 shaking of the building.
24 A. The explosion, there was smoke issuing out of the tunnel
25 towards the Liverpool Street end.

50

1 Q. So we get our bearings, if you go back to page 4 on that
2 exhibit, and you look at the top of the page, you can
3 see how the platforms themselves end?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The tracks all merge eventually into a single tunnel?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If you stand on the platform and look up towards the
8 end, you can see, can you not, into the tunnel where
9 those tracks merge?
10 A. Yes, you can, that's correct.
11 Q. Where was the smoke emanating from?
12 A. If I remember, there are two tunnel mouths, if my memory
13 is correct, and the smoke was billowing or rolling out
14 the roofs of the tunnels.
15 Q. Out of both?
16 A. I think so, yes.
17 Q. Could you see anything in the tunnel other than smoke?
18 A. No.
19 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Just before we go on, Mr Baker, you
20 say that the passengers were being evacuated from the
21 train and the station. Now, as I understood the
22 evidence we heard earlier -- not earlier today, but
23 earlier in these proceedings -- there was an evacuation
24 going on just because the station was too crowded,
25 nothing to do with the explosion.

51

1 MR KEITH: My Lady, that was King's Cross. King's Cross was
2 evacuated at 8.30.
3 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: You're absolutely right. I'm sorry,
4 I've got the wrong stations.
5 But this evacuation was definitely to do with the
6 explosion as far as you could tell?
7 A. As far as I am aware, yes.
8 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Otherwise, there would be no point in
9 having people come off the train?
10 A. No.
11 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you.
12 MR KEITH: Who was helping to do the evacuation?
13 A. There was a member of staff there and I went down with
14 Alwyn Burnell, a DC and Tony Silvestro, another DC, and
15 Kevin Thomas was also there as well, he was the Sergeant
16 there.
17 Q. You were the BTP officers.
18 A. Indeed, yes.
19 Q. You described how, when you went down, the station was
20 already in the process of being evacuated.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who was carrying out that evacuation?
23 A. There's a bald-headed gentleman who works at the station
24 whose name I can't remember.
25 Q. Presumably he's a member of London Underground?

52

1 A. He is, yes.
2 Q. Could you see him?
3 A. Yes, I saw him there.
4 Q. Where was he?
5 A. As I went into the station, I believe he was on the
6 stairs leading down to the platforms, or on the
7 mezzanine level, somewhere around there.
8 Q. Did you see any of his colleagues?
9 A. There was another lady there as well.
10 Q. So one male and one female London Underground employee?
11 A. Yes.
12 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: This evacuation, given the time it
13 would have taken you to get there, must have been
14 happening within minutes of the explosion?
15 A. Less than that, I would imagine.
16 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: What's your best estimate of how long
17 it must have taken to start the evacuation?
18 A. 30 seconds.
19 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you.
20 MR KEITH: You've mentioned how you called your control
21 room. Could we have, please, on the screen BTP167,
22 page 2 [BTP167-2]?
23 My Lady, we have here part of the transcript of the
24 calls. Was it a radio call?
25 A. No, it was on the telephone.

53

1 Q. That was on the landline?
2 A. My mobile phone.
3 Q. To BX, which is the control room for British Transport
4 Police?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We can see at the bottom of the page, 08.49.19:
7 "British Transport Police, good morning.
8 "... Ian Baker here, I'm a DI ... I don't know if
9 you've had anything, we've got ... just sitting in the
10 office ... a huge big bang. We're just down at the
11 platforms having a look at the moment. I'm not quite
12 sure what's happened."
13 I think we've skipped a couple of pages there.
14 Could we go to page 3 [BTP167-3]? Thank you.
15 "Possibly a train-related incident. There don't
16 appear to be anybody hurt. I don't know ...
17 "So are you one of our staff ...
18 " ... Ian Baker ...
19 "There's a lot of dust here. I think what might
20 have happened is the coach has possibly jumped the
21 tracks ..."
22 What made you think that was a possibility?
23 A. The train in platform 2 didn't appear to be fully into
24 the platform.
25 Q. Do you mean the train that was the Metropolitan Line

54

1 train from --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- which passengers were being evacuated --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- which was adjacent to the platform?
6 A. Yes. If I can remember correctly, one of the last
7 carriages may have been partly out of the platform.
8 Q. So you thought the problem may have been associated with
9 the train that you could see in the platform?
10 A. That's right, yes.
11 Q. Rather than something else in the tunnel?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But that's where the smoke was coming from?
14 A. Yes, the smoke was definitely from the tunnel.
15 Q. Further down the page, please, the controller asks you
16 to confirm you heard a bang:
17 "There's a train in platform 2, it's not pulled in
18 properly, it's stopped short, but we don't quite know
19 why and there's a load of dust around the area."
20 Over the page, please, you ask for uniform down
21 there.
22 From the words "down here", you obviously were
23 calling from somewhere in the bottom of the station?
24 A. Yes, I'd have been on the platform level.
25 Q. Why did you want uniform to attend?

55

1 A. We were all CID officers in plain clothes. In
2 incidents, or certainly in initial incidents, you get --
3 it's far easier to control them with uniformed officers,
4 people look to the uniform and take direction and
5 control from them.
6 Q. We'll come back to this a little later but, as a police
7 officer, were you aware in broad terms of the duties and
8 responsibilities of a police officer if there is some
9 sort of incident or emergency? Are there defined roles
10 for the police as opposed to the emergency services?
11 A. Oh, yes, we all have the same role, as it were, you
12 know.
13 Q. Which is what?
14 A. Number 1 is always prevent -- or save life and limb,
15 and, you know, to prevent people dying, basically. And
16 I think that's the same across all emergency services.
17 Q. You appreciated that some uniform officers would be
18 required if there was some question of controlling the
19 scene or of establishing cordons or keeping people back
20 and helping assimilate what was happening?
21 A. That's right, yes.
22 Q. The controller asks you whether there was anybody
23 injured and you said:
24 "Not that we are aware of."
25 And you repeat that the station has been cleared.

56

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You had plainly not gone further into the tunnel. Do
3 you know whether, when you made that call at 08.49.19,
4 the power was off on the track?
5 A. I can't tell you the exact time of it, but I was aware
6 pretty much straightaway that the power was off because
7 of the conversations that Tony, my colleague, had.
8 Q. Tony?
9 A. Tony Silvestro.
10 Q. Could you hear him speaking to somebody?
11 A. He was talking with a member of our staff, yes.
12 Q. And they were discussing the track?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was it about their conversation that led you to
15 believe the power might be off?
16 A. Tony was asking him if the power was off and if it was
17 safe to go down on to the tracks.
18 Q. Was that because he was intending to go down on the
19 track?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What about you? Did you intend to go down on the track?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Why was that?
24 A. In incidents like this -- and something within me was
25 saying that something is very, very wrong -- you need to

57

1 maintain control with your controller to direct
2 resources in and get the correct response.
3 Q. Did you and Mr Silvestro either instinctively or openly
4 decide that he might investigate further and you would
5 maintain liaison with the control room?
6 A. Yes, we spoke very briefly, Tony said "I'll go down the
7 tunnel, you stay here", and I maintained the contact.
8 Q. After you made that call, what did you do?
9 A. I'm trying to think the next thing.
10 Q. If I can assist you, you made another call about three
11 minutes later, which I'll come to in a moment.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall making another call?
14 A. Yes, I made a series of calls.
15 Q. Do you recall what you did between the first two calls?
16 A. I was -- we were evacuating people out the station who
17 were still left, the last few stragglers, as it were,
18 and really trying to ascertain what on earth had gone
19 on.
20 Q. Was anybody appearing from the tunnels at that stage?
21 A. It was -- they were starting to appear gradually,
22 I think, and I don't know if it was the second or the
23 third phone call, you'd probably have to remind me.
24 Q. Let's look at the second call, then, 167, page 12, [BTP167-12]
25 please.

58

1 This is a call at 08.52.40:
2 "Good morning, Transport Police.
3 "... it's DI Baker again, I just spoke to one of
4 your ladies ..."
5 Over the page [BTP167-13]:
6 "I don't know what quite has happened here, there's
7 been a big bang ... I just wanted really to ask if you
8 can get the Fire Brigade down here to check everything's
9 okay because all the power's tripped out and
10 everything."
11 Plainly you appreciated the power was out. What was
12 it about Aldgate station that led you to believe the
13 power was out?
14 A. The conversation with the staff there, we were advised
15 the power had tripped out.
16 Q. For what reason did you wish the Fire Brigade to attend?
17 A. I wasn't happy with it, I'd heard a big bang, there was
18 smoke, the power had tripped out, and there was clearly
19 a safety issue going on. The Fire Brigade, one of the
20 Fire Brigade's primary roles is to deal with the safety
21 around a scene as such.
22 Q. Did you think that would suffice or did you make further
23 requests of the control room for incident response teams
24 to attend?
25 A. Yes, I asked for the London Underground incident

59

1 response team as well. It was clearly an incident that
2 was associated to the Underground.
3 Q. Do we see further down towards the bottom of the screen
4 that you asked the controller to get the incident team
5 of the Underground and their emergency response team,
6 whatever they're called?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The ERU, the Emergency Response Unit?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Further down the page, please --
11 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Sorry, can we just go back? The time
12 of this second call?
13 MR KEITH: According to the transcript, my Lady, it's
14 08.52.40. There has been a certain degree of confusion,
15 I think, in the past as to whether or not that time
16 indicates the beginning or the end of the call. These
17 transcripts have been revised now a number of times to
18 reflect the accurate time of each call.
19 My learned friend Mr Gibbs might be able to assist
20 in relation to whether or not that time indicates the
21 beginning or the end of the call now.
22 MR GIBBS: It indicates beginning of the call.
23 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Right, so it indicates that a call is
24 made by Mr Baker at 08.52.40 and a second or two into
25 that call he says he wants the Fire Brigade, yes?

60

1 MR GIBBS: That's right. Whether that timing is accurate is
2 a matter still of some conjecture, but that is the
3 timing that we have.
4 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Well, Mr Baker, on the question of
5 timing, given we know what time the explosion occurred,
6 does 08.52.40 seem to be about right for when you made
7 the second call?
8 A. It does. We were there pretty much instantly and trying
9 to ascertain what was going on, so it was merely a few
10 minutes.
11 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you.
12 MR KEITH: My Lady, if it assists, may I just refer you to
13 the Aldgate time line, which is at INQ10426 [INQ10426-1]?
14 The first entry you may recall from the opening is
15 at 08.47.38, which is a BTP call from
16 London Underground, but we know from the absolute time
17 at which the explosion occurred, which was 08.49.00,
18 that that call, which is taken from the same exhibit,
19 BTP167 must therefore be about one minute and 40 seconds
20 out, and that is our best estimate as to the accuracy of
21 those transcripts.
22 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: So if that was right then this call
23 is about 08.54?
24 MR KEITH: Absolutely.
25 To go back then, please, Detective Inspector, to

61

1 167, pages 12 and 13 [BTP167-12] [BTP167-13], there's some discussion at the
2 bottom of the page as to whether it's Aldgate as opposed
3 to Aldgate East?
4 A. That's correct, yes.
5 Q. And then, over the page, you end the call [BTP167-14].
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What did you do after that call?
8 A. I seem to remember -- and it's very difficult now
9 because it's a long time ago -- I was moving around the
10 platform at the mezzanine area and the booking hall area
11 and we started to receive people who had come from the
12 tracks.
13 Q. Were you in the booking hall area or the mezzanine area
14 or the platform?
15 A. I really couldn't tell you, after all this time now.
16 Q. How did you know they'd come down the tracks?
17 A. They were covered in soot, dirt, you know, incredibly
18 messy. I've seen people come out of railway tunnels
19 before and they have this familiar black soot, I don't
20 know if it's brake dust or soot or whatever on them,
21 and, you know, they're filthy with it.
22 Q. Were you able to communicate with Mr Silvestro, your
23 colleague, whom you understood had gone down the track
24 towards the tunnel?
25 A. Once he'd gone down the tunnel I couldn't talk to him at

62

1 all.
2 Q. Why is that?
3 A. No phone signal.
4 Q. There's no phone signal inside the tunnel?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Is there any radio network which British Transport
7 Police had, at that time, which allowed communication in
8 the tunnels?
9 A. We -- going back, at that time we would have had,
10 I think it's a UHF frequency radio network, the uniform
11 officer would use out on patrol. As CID officers, we
12 wouldn't have that on us.
13 Q. So CID officers, you didn't have the radio kit that
14 allow communication in the tunnel?
15 A. No, we don't use it.
16 Q. The persons who were coming out of the tunnel with soot
17 and dishevelled and dirty, did they have any sort of
18 injuries initially?
19 A. I think the first two were just walking out looking
20 dazed and bewildered, and covered in the dirt from the
21 tunnel, but very quickly we were aware that people were
22 coming out with injuries.
23 Q. Where did they go?
24 A. They were just milling around in bewilderment, really.
25 Q. Did you judge from what you saw that there was plainly

63

1 something very serious indeed amiss in the tunnel?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you help the injured yourself or did you go back
4 down to see what was going on at track level?
5 A. Initially, I was trying to talk to the people, say,
6 "Look, what's happened?" It just -- clearly they just
7 weren't understanding anything and they were just
8 totally confused.
9 Q. Did you call BX, the BTP control room again, then, at
10 08.57.42, so adjusted time around about 08.59, one
11 minute before the hour, on page 39 of that last exhibit,
12 167, please? 08.57.42, so we can run it forward, it's
13 probably about 08.59, once we have adjusted the
14 transcript times. You state in relation to the Aldgate
15 thing:
16 "I think we have to call it a major incident."
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was the significance of inviting the control room
19 to call it a major incident?
20 A. It invokes various procedures within the emergency
21 services to happen.
22 Q. Do you know what precisely the effect is?
23 A. For starters, they will alert all the other emergency
24 services that there's a major incident, or what the
25 police consider to be a major incident. It's not always

64

1 a major incident to the other services.
2 Q. But if it's a major incident declared --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- may that have some effect on the speed and response
5 of the other services?
6 A. It will, and you'll get a different standard of
7 response.
8 Q. Do you know whether, as a result of you saying, "I think
9 we have to call it a major incident", a major incident
10 was declared by the British Transport Police control
11 room?
12 A. I can't comment for the control room.
13 Q. Whether it was a major incident or not, you took care to
14 ask that this should be ambulanced in any event.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You say:
17 "Can we have ambulances to Aldgate ... we've taken
18 injured into the Aldgate police office at present"?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were some of the injured tended for in the British
21 Transport Police office?
22 A. Yes, when we started taking people who had injuries,
23 really, as a place to give them a bit of comfort,
24 I opened up the office we use to -- it's like
25 a reception office for people being interviewed,

65

1 I opened that up and asked them, you know, or directed
2 them to sit down there for a while. I initially just
3 thought it was going to be a few people.
4 Q. Could we go to the bottom of the page, please [BTP167-39], you
5 describe there "three walking wounded at the moment",
6 then four or five, and over the page [BTP167-40] the controller
7 confirms that you want ambulances?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you recall where you were when you made that call on
10 your mobile?
11 A. I think I was just by our -- like the reception room
12 I've just described, I think at the start of the call
13 I said, "Yes, go in there, love" and I was directing
14 a lady into the room. Sort of inviting her to sit down.
15 Q. Some ten minutes had elapsed now from the bang and the
16 explosion. Had you heard from Mr Silvestro?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Then, if we could move forward to page 51 [BTP167-51], please, you
19 called back five minutes later, roughly. Why did you
20 feel the need to call again?
21 A. The number of injured was increasing steadily. It had
22 gone from a slow trickle to a very, very heavy flow of
23 people coming out of the tunnel. Some with quite
24 horrific injuries, in fairness. You know, we clearly
25 needed a lot of ambulances.

66

1 Q. Did you feel, therefore, that your earlier request for
2 ambulances may not have led to enough ambulances
3 arriving?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If we could go further down the page, please, you repeat
6 your description of what you saw: namely, of the
7 building shaking --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- and smoke issuing at Aldgate on platform 2 and, five
10 or ten minutes later, walking wounded.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You describe the situation as being one of pandemonium.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that on account of the number of wounded who were
15 appearing in the Aldgate station?
16 A. Yes. Initially, it was just myself I think and
17 DC Burnell and Kev Thomas as well and we had this huge
18 number of people who were coming out and they were just
19 milling around everywhere, and a lot of them needed help
20 and care, and we couldn't control that between us.
21 Q. Over the page, please, you repeat a reference to
22 a severe lack of uniform in order to coordinate the
23 response.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In relation to the injured, you say:

67

1 "About 25. Some look quite serious and you're going
2 to need ambulances."
3 You've closed off Aldgate High Street but you're
4 going to need cordons.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did the possibility that there were dead or dying in the
7 tunnel cross your mind at that stage?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What did you do after this call?
10 A. I think by around this time, there were other police
11 resources arriving.
12 Q. BTP or Met?
13 A. I can remember the British Transport Police ones, but
14 I'm very aware that there were City of London Police and
15 Metropolitan Police arriving as well. Because of the
16 chaoticness or the chaos by this time, it's difficult to
17 remember the order in which they arrive.
18 Q. Do you recall whether, by the time of this call -- which
19 is about 9.05 -- any emergency services -- by which
20 I mean ambulances or fire engines -- had arrived?
21 A. I think the additional police resources were the ones to
22 get there first, followed by the other emergency
23 services.
24 Q. You made a further call at 09.28 and we'll come and look
25 at that in a moment, but do you remember where you went

68

1 for the following 25 minutes or so before you made that
2 last call?
3 A. I spoke to a huge, huge number of other emergency
4 service resources. Initially, it was police officers,
5 I'd brief them as they arrive and tell them what the
6 situation was, and say, "Look, I think we've got injured
7 people down there, can you go and assist?" and tell them
8 the scenario as it had unfolded, really.
9 Q. Do you recall briefing members of the emergency services
10 as they arrived?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall whether that was before or after the last
13 call that you made, as we'll see, at 09.28?
14 A. That was before.
15 Q. It was before?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was it Fire Brigade and ambulance, or one or both?
18 A. I saw both. Again, the exact times, you've probably got
19 the record. I haven't, I'm afraid.
20 Q. At 09.28, which is at our exhibit BTP169-26 [BTP169-26], we can see
21 that you called again.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You say:
24 "I'm wondering if you can give us a brief update as
25 to what's actually going on. We're slowly starting to

69

1 get a lot of resources in here now and we've set up the
2 triage in Aldgate bus depot ...
3 "I'm aware there's possibly confirmed ... well,
4 there's possibly fatalities on the train."
5 How did you know there were possible fatalities on
6 the train?
7 A. I'd spoken to other police officers, Bob Munn who had
8 been down on to the tracks.
9 Q. Pause there. Inspector Munn is that?
10 A. Yes, he'd been down on to the train and he gave me
11 a very brief resume of what he'd seen and dealt with.
12 Q. Had you spoken to Mr Silvestro in the meantime as well?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you therefore believe that he may have gone down
15 into the train in the tunnel and stayed down there?
16 A. Yes, as far as I knew.
17 Q. At 09.28, therefore, you knew that there were possible
18 fatalities from Inspector Munn. You say:
19 "We've got MIAT ..."
20 Is that the Multi-agency Initial Assessment Team,
21 a combination of emergency responders?
22 A. It's a City of London team, I believe, with that sort of
23 remit, yes.
24 Q. Is that a team that assesses whether or not an incident
25 with possibly a bomb could be a dirty bomb or a chemical

70

1 or biological or radiological or nuclear-related bomb?
2 A. That's right, yes.
3 Q. But you're still seeking information as to what's going
4 on. Was that because you were unsure what the nature of
5 the explosion, if that's what it had been, was?
6 A. No, I'd heard reports of other incidents going on across
7 London, and I didn't know what I was hearing -- what was
8 going on across the rest of London.
9 Q. Did you gather from Inspector Munn what the cause of the
10 explosion or the shaking of the building, which is what
11 you had seen or heard, might have been?
12 A. Yes, he told me he'd seen blast damage. In his view,
13 a bomb had gone off.
14 Q. He said a bomb had gone off?
15 A. Yes, I believe so, yes.
16 Q. Further down the page, the controller answers your query
17 by saying:
18 "... all we know is the station's being evacuated
19 and we've got units coming left, right and centre ...
20 we've got casualties with blast injuries, shock
21 injuries ... we're updating, it's going on and on and on
22 at the moment."
23 Over the page [BTP169-27] BTP, you ask again about what's actually
24 going on, and then you ask whether any senior officers
25 running en route or not, and you're given the name of an

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1 officer and you state at the bottom of the page that
2 you'll see whether you can liaise with him.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you relay to the control room what Inspector Munn
5 had told you, which was that there had been a bomb?
6 A. No, I didn't. I was of the understanding that had
7 already been done.
8 Q. If you go back one page, you discuss with the controller
9 your concern that you don't really know what's going on.
10 That would seem to suggest that you may not have been
11 entirely clear with each other that it had been a bomb.
12 I mean, if you had openly discussed the fact that there
13 was a bomb, you would have been clearer about what was
14 going on.
15 A. Yes, I think the confusion was that there was talk of
16 all sorts of incidents going on all over the place and,
17 you know, I didn't know whether they were linked or not,
18 and part of my role is, as an investigator, to
19 investigate things like that.
20 Q. Because you're plainclothes?
21 A. Yes, some of those other incidents may have had
22 a bearing on our incident and obviously I wanted to know
23 about that.
24 Q. Although you were in plainclothes and you are a criminal
25 investigator, did you turn your mind during the course

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1 of those 25 minutes or so between the two last calls to
2 whether or not the emergency services were arriving in
3 sufficient strength and sufficiently quickly to be able
4 to deal with the possible fatalities that Inspector Munn
5 had spoken of?
6 A. Yes, like all large incidents, it's slow to gather
7 momentum, but there was an absolute sea of ambulances,
8 fire engines and police cars all down Aldgate High
9 Street.
10 Q. When they arrived, was there a tendency for them to come
11 to you and to other officers and try to get a briefing
12 as to what was going on, or did they tend to head
13 straight down into the guts of the station?
14 A. I'm trying to think back. I think after the initial few
15 calls, a lot of my time was spent around the entrance to
16 the station almost receiving different emergency
17 services and sort of saying, "Look, this is what we've
18 got".
19 Q. Were you able to see where they went after they'd
20 arrived or --
21 A. They were all going into the station, down to the
22 tunnels.
23 Q. Can we look, please, at a log? I think there came
24 a time, Detective Inspector, when you asked one of your
25 colleagues, a PC Lawrence, to keep a log of your

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1 decisions.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In accordance with usual practice.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The log is at BTP1089-2. Page 2.
6 That's not the right one, INQ10089 [INQ10089-2]. It is INQ not
7 BTP, 10089. If it's not there, then we have, I think,
8 a typed version. Ah yes, there we are.
9 Did you see the log while it was being prepared,
10 Mr Baker, afterwards?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Let's have a look at the typed version, which is BTP387,
13 I believe. I just want to explore one or two of the
14 entries, if I may with you.
15 It's not up on Trial Director.
16 Then staying with the original handwritten
17 version --
18 A. Do you mind if I refer to a typed version?
19 Q. If you have it there, by all means -- ah yes, there we
20 are [BTP387-1].
21 At the top of the page, 09.24, the log commences,
22 and there's a reference there to "witnesses escorted
23 over to bus station area".
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The reference to "witnesses" reflects, does it not,

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1 officer, your role as a criminal investigator and your
2 emphasis on trying to see what had happened and what the
3 witnesses could tell you as to what had happened --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- and to investigate it?
6 A. It does, but that -- I think the word "witness" is
7 probably the wrong word. It encompasses everybody who
8 came out of that tunnel, basically.
9 Q. All right. At 09.25, it says:
10 "From Inspector Baker CBRN teams to be deployed in
11 case 'dirty bomb'."
12 That appears to reflect your order that the CBRN
13 team attend?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do we presume, therefore, that by 09.25 you must have
16 been told that there was a bomb of some sort?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That was the information you received from
19 Inspector Munn?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So it preceded that time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At 09.26, there's a reference to "clearing area/roads".
24 Was it a concern of yours that cordons should be
25 placed around the station and the roads kept clear to

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1 allow emergency services to attend?
2 A. It was a dual decision, really: (a) to allow access to
3 emergency vehicles and (b) in case of secondary devices.
4 Q. How real was the concern about secondary devices?
5 A. Very real.
6 Q. Did it actually have any effect, however, upon whether
7 or not the emergency services continued to go down to
8 the tunnel to rescue those who needed to be brought out?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was that because a decision was made that they should
11 continue anyway, notwithstanding the risk?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. At 09.45, we can see the note:
14 "From DI Baker priority at this stage get all
15 casualties out."
16 Is that a reflection of that order: namely, all
17 other considerations notwithstanding, the priority is to
18 get everybody out?
19 A. Absolutely. It's a very -- in my view, it's a very real
20 threat that we could have a secondary device in that
21 train. As a result, you need to get as many people out
22 as quick as you can. I appreciate there were injured
23 people in there as well, but obviously the services were
24 doing the best they could to get them out.
25 Q. But there was no question, was there, of a standoff

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1 period or of the emergency services being directed not
2 to go into the tunnel because of the risk of secondary
3 devices?
4 A. No, the standoff wasn't until after 10.00, I believe.
5 Q. Can we go over the page?
6 I think it's on the overhead projector, requested by
7 Mr Gibbs, I believe.
8 Over the page, we can see times in relation to the
9 hour 10.00 and thereafter. Reference to standoff is at
10 10.24:
11 "Liaised with Inspector Munn. He requests 100-metre
12 cordon and a one-hour standoff."
13 But by then, everybody who was alive had been
14 brought out?
15 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.
16 Q. Do you know when the last living casualty was brought
17 out of the Aldgate tunnel?
18 A. I couldn't give you the time. I certainly saw them
19 being carried out, but timewise, no.
20 Q. By 10.10, you were informed that the preliminary opinion
21 was that the bomb had been a bag-borne type device?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that was consistent with blast damage in the
24 carriage?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. So within an hour, essentially?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR KEITH: Detective Inspector, please wait there. There
4 may be some further questions for you.
5 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Coltart?
6 Questions by MR COLTART
7 MR COLTART: I have a few, yes, thank you. I wonder whether
8 we could go back to the time line, please? It's
9 INQ10426, page 4 [INQ10426-4] -- in fact page 3 [INQ10426-3], can we start at the
10 bottom of page 3?
11 We see, Mr Baker, that at the bottom of page 3 is
12 where you have attempted to report a major incident at
13 Aldgate, or that certainly was your intention it appears
14 from the telephone call.
15 As Mr Keith has already alluded to, the term "major
16 incident" is in fact -- it's a term of art, isn't it?
17 It triggers a certain set of specific responses?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. One of those is that it establishes for each of the
20 emergency services who individually declare a main
21 incident, don't they -- in other words, it doesn't apply
22 across the board?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Just because the British Transport Police have declared
25 it, that doesn't bind any of the other emergency

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1 services as it were?
2 A. No.
3 Q. But it puts in place a chain of command, does it not,
4 for that emergency service which has declared a major
5 incident?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Gold, Silver and Bronze, and Gold will be senior
8 officers who will establish a control centre somewhere
9 off-site for sort of an overview of the operation,
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Silver will be strategic direction by a senior officer,
13 albeit of lesser rank, who's on-site, and then Bronze
14 are the -- I was going to use the word "gofers", I'm
15 sure that's not appropriate, but you understand what
16 I mean. It's the people who are hands-on, directing
17 individual tasks to be performed on site.
18 A. Yes, I'm not sure if -- I think you said Silver was
19 strategic. I think that sits at the Gold level.
20 Q. I may well have got the terminology wrong, but is the
21 gist of what I'm saying correct?
22 A. That is, yes.
23 Q. Now, were you -- after you had declared or at least you
24 thought you had declared a major incident there at
25 08.57, did you become the Silver Commander, as it were,

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1 on point for -- or on-site for the British Transport
2 Police? Were you the most senior officer there?
3 A. You could put that badge on it, but it was still very
4 much rescue and recovery. We just needed to get in and
5 assist the people.
6 Q. Yes. Is there -- and I genuinely don't know the answer
7 to some these questions, so we'll just try to obtain
8 some information in relation to all of this.
9 Are there different coloured jackets which people
10 wear? Is there a silver jacket which would be worn
11 ideally by the person who adopts that role?
12 A. Ideally, yes.
13 Q. Was that ever provided to you?
14 A. I was never given a jacket. I don't think it would have
15 made one little bit of difference, but, no.
16 Q. We haven't heard yet from Inspector Munn. He's going to
17 come and give evidence in a week or two. I think he
18 will say that, when he arrived, you were wearing a high
19 visibility jacket, but is that different, is that a sort
20 of tabard, bright-coloured?
21 A. No, it's a standard issue police jacket. I was in
22 plainclothes in a suit. People wouldn't have known me
23 from Adam if they'd seen me.
24 Q. Right. So the other emergency services who were then
25 arriving as the minutes passed, were they able to

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1 identify you as the person to whom they needed to speak
2 in order to obtain information about what was happening?
3 A. Sorry, what was the question again?
4 Q. Other emergency services arrived -- once you'd come back
5 up to the ticket hall, having been on the platform, seen
6 the smoke, you've got walking wounded arriving. As we
7 understand it, that's broadly speaking where you were
8 then based?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you, as far as you were aware at that stage, the
11 Silver Officer or Silver Commander for the British
12 Transport Police?
13 A. I was the highest ranking officer there at that time.
14 Q. So when other emergency responders arrived, whether it
15 was City of London Police, Metropolitan Police, London
16 Ambulance Service and so on, were they able to identify
17 you as the Silver Officer for British Transport Police?
18 A. I think initially I was the only police officer standing
19 there at that gate with a high visibility jacket on.
20 Q. Right. So it was obvious that, if they were to direct
21 their attention to anybody, it was going to be to you.
22 Fine.
23 Were you able to establish who the Silver Officers
24 were for the other emergency services, once they, too,
25 had declared their own major incidents?

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1 A. Not initially, no. But in fairness that wasn't
2 a concern within the first few minutes.
3 Q. Can I say that it is very easy me trying to recreate
4 these events in the calm atmosphere of the courtroom.
5 Plainly, it was very different on the day. But the
6 reason why I'm asking -- and I can short-circuit this --
7 is that it appears from our time line -- if we move
8 through to page 11 [INQ10426-11]-- do you see the entry at 10.32:
9 "First Silver meeting."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I think in fairness to you -- and we might come across
12 this as we go through the chronology of events -- you
13 may have handed over responsibility for Silver Officer
14 by that stage, but was that, in fact, the first meeting
15 of Silver Officers from the various different emergency
16 services?
17 A. If we're getting down to the technicalities of it,
18 I would assume that, when I liaised with
19 Chief Inspector Pacey, that would be a handover, he was
20 of higher rank. I'd have to refer to the time. It was
21 about 9.30, I believe.
22 Q. It's in your log, I believe.
23 A. 9.34.
24 Q. Let's just have a look at that document, because it may
25 assist us with the chain of command. It's BTP387?

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1 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Coltart, what I was just asking
2 Mr Smith is really, I don't want in any way to interrupt
3 your questioning, it's just that I am concerned that we
4 have, of course, announced a timetabling of different
5 issues.
6 MR COLTART: Yes.
7 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Some people may or may not be here --
8 MR COLTART: Yes.
9 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: -- if they think these are issues
10 we're going to go into at this stage, and I'm just
11 wondering whether -- Mr Baker, if we had to come back to
12 you, would you be able to come back to give evidence?
13 A. Yes, I'm supposed to be on leave next week, but --
14 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I don't think it will be in the next
15 couple of weeks. I think it may be possibly in the new
16 year. I'm just wondering, Mr Coltart, whether this is
17 fair on everybody who might have an interest in that?
18 MR COLTART: May I say I respectfully agree. It's been the
19 discussion between counsel -- been the subject of some
20 discussion between counsel, as to whether it is
21 appropriate to interpose Mr Baker's evidence now because
22 of these issues --
23 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Indeed.
24 MR COLTART: -- and others which may arise from his
25 evidence. For my part, can I say I would be more than

83

1 happy to be interrupted at this point and to deal with
2 Mr Baker at a later date.
3 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Sorry, my microphone wasn't on.
4 I need to summarise what I said.
5 I was questioning whether, given that other people
6 may not have notice of our going into this issue at this
7 stage, it might be better to leave it until we come to
8 it when it is timetabled and, essentially, you've been
9 agreeing that that might well be a better course.
10 MR COLTART: Yes, I do respectfully agree with that course.
11 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I think it's bound to happen.
12 Whatever way you divide up issues, it's bound to happen
13 that witnesses may have different functions.
14 MR COLTART: Yes.
15 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Are all other counsel content that we
16 should, as it were, put off this issue until we come to
17 it as it is presently timetabled?
18 MS SHEFF: I'm certainly content, my Lady. This is
19 a witness who does concern us with regard to our generic
20 issue and we would be happy to deal with it in the
21 proper time.
22 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Keith, do you have any comments
23 about this?
24 MR KEITH: My Lady, I wholly understand the concern that's
25 been expressed. Mr Baker was giving evidence now

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1 because of his own personal commitments that preclude
2 him from giving evidence alongside his British Transport
3 Police colleagues, but in truth, there are two levels of
4 command and control, if I may use that expression.
5 Mr Baker's evidence is very much more connected with
6 the factual circumstances surrounding the initial
7 response and, as with all his colleagues who deal with
8 the initial response in the first half an hour at ground
9 level, if I may use that phrase, that evidence is being
10 called towards the end of the Aldgate scene, so in about
11 ten days' time, which is why Mr Baker is giving evidence
12 now because that is when he would have been on holiday,
13 or is on holiday.
14 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: That's why I've only interrupted when
15 we get to 10.30. I appreciated that you wanted it as
16 part of the scene.
17 MR KEITH: That, my Lady, is absolutely right as part of the
18 wider generic issues which my Lady is hearing in the
19 new year. But I rather fear that it will be very hard
20 in practice to divide up the evidence between the
21 initial factual response and the later generic issues
22 from 10.00 onwards.
23 But certainly there are other witnesses who will be
24 giving evidence on a much higher tactical level, or
25 strategic level, I should say, in the new year, and he

85

1 can join them, but I think he may find that his evidence
2 will be out of kilter with the very much higher level of
3 command levels that we will be hearing then.
4 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Gibbs, obviously this affects you
5 to a certain extent. My inclination at the moment is
6 really to limit the evidence that Inspector Baker gives
7 at the moment. He may or may not be required in the new
8 year, but my inclination is to limit him at the moment
9 to, as it were, the immediate aftermath --
10 MR GIBBS: Yes.
11 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: -- rather than the rather wider
12 issues.
13 MR GIBBS: Yes. It may be that to Mr Coltart and to others
14 it will emerge that there are better witnesses to ask
15 the sort of questions that I anticipate he might want to
16 ask later.
17 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: That's what was occurring to me as
18 I realised we were going further down this path.
19 MR GIBBS: It might even be that they could all be wrapped
20 up within one witness rather than approaching each
21 witness with the same issues.
22 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Does anybody else have any comments
23 they wish to make at this stage?
24 MS BARTON: My Lady, I respectfully agree with Mr Gibbs.
25 The City of London Police have the same command

86

1 structure in place, Gold, Silver, Bronze, and it will be
2 explained at a later stage much better by those who are
3 involved in that command structure intimately.
4 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Right, well, Mr Coltart, unless
5 anybody else has any objections, could we please
6 restrict at this stage -- I certainly won't restrict you
7 from asking that the witness be recalled, if
8 necessary -- could we restrict Mr Baker's evidence, as
9 it were, to the immediate aftermath and what he did, if
10 you have any other questions on that?
11 MR COLTART: Yes, I do. Can I just explain, if it's
12 helpful, what I was proposing to explore in this regard
13 with the witness?
14 I'm not proposing to go into, for example, the
15 details of the London Emergency Services Liaison Panel
16 manual or anything of that nature or the theoretical
17 command structure any more than I have done already, but
18 in order for us to explore properly the generic issues
19 in due course, we need to have some sort of factual
20 context for them, and in terms of, for example, if this
21 witness, Mr Baker, was at some stage the on-site
22 Silver Commander, to what extent he was and did liaise
23 with his counterparts from the other emergency services
24 on the day.
25 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Then you are going into issues where

87

1 other people may have an interest and may not have come
2 to court.
3 MR COLTART: Yes, I see.
4 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Therefore, I would prefer it, please,
5 if we limit it to what people are expecting us to do.
6 I think it's only fair if we stick to what people are
7 expecting, so that those who are interested in this
8 issue can be here when we deal with it.
9 MR COLTART: Yes, of course. I'll leave that issue
10 completely for the time being.
11 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: If you would, please, thank you.
12 MR COLTART: Maybe, if necessary, Mr Baker could come back
13 later.
14 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: We'll try not to call you back,
15 Mr Baker, but I'm afraid we may have to.
16 A. Okay.
17 MR COLTART: Page 4, please, of the time line [INQ10426-4].
18 If we could just make that a little bigger if that's
19 possible, I'm interested in the middle of the page, the
20 entry at 08.58.53.
21 Do you see that entry:
22 "BTP request London Ambulance Service to attend to
23 3-4 walking wounded."
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We'll go to the transcript if we need to, but I think,

88

1 in fairness to you, this doesn't appear to have been
2 a telephone conversation involving you directly. This
3 was information being conveyed that there were three to
4 four walking wounded.
5 Now, was that consistent, was that number
6 consistent, with, in fact, the numbers who appeared to
7 be pouring through the ticket office at that point?
8 A. I would really have to look at the timings of the phone
9 calls. My recollection of these isn't good now. It
10 initially started with just a trickle, and it just grew
11 and grew and grew to the point where we had people
12 spread out across the forecourt of the station and all
13 over the place.
14 Q. Over the page, please, the top of page 5, [INQ10426-5] the first
15 entry on that page, the first London Fire Brigade
16 appliance arrived at 9.00. Do you have any independent
17 recollection now of that fire engine arriving?
18 A. Not after all this time, no.
19 Q. Do you recall speaking to firemen as they arrived, early
20 firemen, as they arrived?
21 A. I did speak to firemen, yes.
22 Q. What information were you able to convey to them at that
23 point?
24 A. Purely probably what we've heard already. We'd heard an
25 explosion, the building shook. We had, by that time,

89

1 I think, a number of injured people who were very
2 apparent within the station area, they were all dazed,
3 soot-covered, and there appeared to be an incident down
4 in the tunnel, something had happened within the tunnel
5 that had caused all these injuries. I'd heard an
6 explosion and, you know, you can make some assumptions,
7 but I hadn't physically been there to see it. So
8 I didn't know.
9 Q. Do you recall whether you told them that the power had
10 been switched off?
11 A. I couldn't tell you by now.
12 Q. Over the page again, please, at page 6 [INQ10426-6], towards the
13 bottom of that page at 09.06, we know that by 6 minutes
14 past 9 Inspector Munn had plainly arrived at Aldgate
15 station?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. He's based at Stratford, I think, isn't he?
18 A. Yes. Well, he was then, yes.
19 Q. He was then with a team of probationers that he was
20 training. After he arrived -- and again, we haven't
21 heard from Mr Munn yet, so I don't wish to preempt his
22 evidence in any detail, but I suspect he will tell us
23 that, after he arrived, or shortly after he arrived, he,
24 too, went down to the tunnel.
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. He went into the tunnel and he was actively engaged in
2 an assessment of the bombed carriage, the evacuation
3 process and getting the injured out and back up into the
4 station. Is he a uniformed officer or a plainclothes
5 officer?
6 A. He's uniformed, yes.
7 Q. So he would have had a radio?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But you didn't have a radio; you had a mobile phone. He
10 may or may not have had a mobile phone, but presumably
11 it would not have worked in the tunnel?
12 A. No, you know, I've ridden that journey myself many
13 times. There are places where you can get a signal, but
14 it's very, very weak and it won't last very long.
15 Q. Do you recall now, are you able to recall, how it was
16 that he was able to communicate to you about the fact
17 that it had clearly been a bomb blast and the extent of
18 the damage?
19 A. I think he came out at times. For what reason, whether
20 it was to convey casualties out or to take officers in,
21 I can't remember now, but it would have been for one of
22 those reasons.
23 Q. Is it possible -- I only pose the question -- that, in
24 fact, this is a discussion which you had with him after
25 the tunnel had been evacuated?

91

1 A. No, I don't think so.
2 Q. I only ask because, if we go back to your log, which is
3 BTP387, we've looked at the entry about the possibility
4 of a dirty bomb --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- which appears at 09.25 at the top of that page, but
7 towards the bottom of the page, do you see the entry at
8 09.51?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. "DI Baker request to DC Warner to check with ..."
11 Is that National Control Centre?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. "... for possible reasons for [the] incident."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would that suggest that, at about 9.50 or so, you,
16 yourself, were not in fact aware of what had caused the
17 damage on the train?
18 A. The only real -- I can definitely remember Bob telling
19 us fairly early on -- I mean, I say about 10 past,
20 I don't know if it definitely was -- fairly early on
21 what his view was. I'm not terribly experienced in
22 matters of explosives, and I think he's got a lot more
23 experience in that, so I'm happy to take the lead from
24 him on that.
25 The NCC check was more about preserving evidence

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1 that they may have about movements of trains and
2 preserving any sort of telephone calls or things like
3 that that they may have within that location.
4 Q. Short of people moving physically between the tunnel and
5 the entrance to the station where you were, was there
6 any way of communicating with the people who were
7 working on the evacuation process?
8 A. Nothing in place at that time.
9 Q. You, yourself, were reliant upon a mobile phone?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did there come a time when it became difficult to make
12 or receive mobile phone calls or to receive or send text
13 messages?
14 A. Yes, it did, yes.
15 Q. Are you able to assist us with timings in that regard?
16 How long after, roughly, the incident started did it
17 become difficult with the mobile phone?
18 A. It was initially -- I say initially it was not
19 a problem, but certainly I think after 9.30 it started
20 to become difficult and I know certainly after 10.00 it
21 was impossible.
22 Q. Could we just get the time line back on the screen?
23 Page 7, please. I'm sorry to jump about with the
24 timings a bit, but if we go to the bottom of page 7 [INQ10426-7],
25 according to the records, the first ambulance arrived at

93

1 about 9.15, which is about 25 minutes or so after the
2 bomb has gone off and you've heard the explosion.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you conscious in that intervening period of no
5 London Ambulance Service present at the station? Was it
6 something you became conscious of?
7 A. I know Bob has spoken about it, but I don't know if I
8 picked it up from what I've read in the papers or from
9 my memories of the scene, it's difficult to tell now.
10 Q. Just casting your mind back and doing the best you can,
11 were you beginning to think, "Where are the London
12 Ambulance Service?"
13 A. I can remember a lot of casualties talking of the
14 ambulances.
15 Q. As in asking for an ambulance, "Where are the
16 paramedics?"
17 A. But like all these things, a lot of it is down to luck
18 and where people are at the time.
19 Q. Of course. Do you recall speaking to the first members
20 of the London Ambulance Service who arrived, when that
21 ambulance turned up?
22 A. I remember speaking to ambulance people. As to what
23 I told them -- and I would be guessing, you know, I'd
24 have given them a briefing as to what was going on, but
25 it would have been very, very clear when they got there

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1 what -- there was a problem.
2 Q. It would have been clear to them, wouldn't it, that
3 there was a problem in the ticket hall area where there
4 were a lot of casualties. Would it have been clear to
5 them without explanation as to what was happening in the
6 tunnel?
7 A. I think it was. If I had spoken to them, I would have
8 told them what had gone on. Sadly, I don't have any log
9 which I can refer to to remind me.
10 Q. In fairness to you, you obviously did make arrangements
11 for a log to be kept, but it started a little after that
12 point at about 9.25.
13 A. Yes, it's the initial chaos, there's so many people and
14 you're talking to so many and trying to corral people,
15 it's nigh on impossible to get that going as a first
16 responder.
17 Q. No, of course. There's only one more brief topic which
18 I propose to ask Mr Baker about.
19 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I'm afraid I have an important
20 professional commitment tonight. I have to leave the
21 building by 4.50.
22 How much questioning do we think other people are
23 going to have?
24 MR SAUNDERS: A few minutes from me, my Lady.
25 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Ms Sheff?

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1 MS SHEFF: The same, my Lady.
2 MS CANBY: The same, my Lady.
3 MS BOYD: One question, my Lady.
4 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Taylor, will you have some
5 questions for the Inspector?
6 MR TAYLOR: No, madam.
7 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Gibbs, you will presumably?
8 MR GIBBS: Yes, I will, they may well arise out of the ones
9 that have just been indicated.
10 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Can you be back tomorrow, Mr Baker?
11 A. If you want, yes.
12 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Your holiday is not for a while yet?
13 A. No, no, unfortunately not.
14 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I think given that, by the sounds of
15 it, there are quite a lot of questions and I don't want
16 people feeling that they're restricted by time, I think
17 we'd better finish there, then, Mr Coltart.
18 MR COLTART: Thank you.
19 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: 10.00 tomorrow, please.
20 (4.25 pm)
21 (The inquests adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)
22
23
24
25

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